[Green-Activist] Big Bad Coal and Homo insapiens
frank
wetherbystn at bigpond.com
Wed Apr 23 20:08:36 EST 2008
Dear John,
As u well know i've been saying for decades that global warming, species extinction and all environmental woes are, in fact, effects. The cause of all environmental problems and the social problems faced by the planet is gross human overpopulation. So there's no argument there.
Secondly, i know u have politically left leanings. I have no argument with u there, as i think u are a genuine greenie who realises both major parties are equally opposed to real environmental change and have to be defeated before any real changes will occur.
The "lefty trash" i refer to are those who work towards making The Greens nothing but a preference gatherer for Labour. If The Greens achieve balance of power in any capacity these people will ensure that is used to support Labour.
I too would like to see the same thing as u, but i'm not talking about the future. I'm on about NOW.
There is one major cause of CO2 emissions. Fossil fuels. These are primarily coal and oil. It is known how much CO2 is produced from every ton of coal and every barrel of oil. Before that barrel of oil or that ton of coal is sold the seller has to remove that amount of CO2 from the atmosphere.
How they do that is up to them, but carbon capture is the only way i know that this can be done right now. This carbon credit scheme they go on about, even if it works, and i can see plenty of scope for wroting, will only deliver down the track. Which is true for clean power generation.
As for cost and who ends up paying. Don't know. Don't care. Humans have to do it to survive. The CO2 already released, if not removed, is plenty to cause enough damage to collapse the world economy, causing world wide kayos because there are just too many of us. We'll do the rest then. Kill ourselves and probably the planet.
The cry will come, but what about the rest of the world. That too can be handled by making importers remove the CO2 produced making and transporting those goods here, before they can sell them. Might have to go a bit isolationist for a while. But Australia can be self supporting. Not many other countries can.
The rest of the world will end up following suit. Some country has to lead the way. Because the rest of the world needs what we've got, Australia is the logical choice.
frank brown
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----- Original Message -----
From: John Hill
To: maillist for Green Activists
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 8:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Green-Activist] Big Bad Coal and Homo insapiens
Dear Frank:
Thank you for your note. My position is that NO new coal-burning power plants should be built until they can be shown to be almost totally free of carbon dioxide emissions (and other major pollutants) - and I don't believe this has been demonstrated yet. This should be mandated and strongly enforced through some kind of effective international agency (some branch of the UN?) which would derive it's legitimacy from the fact that air pollution in any part of the world is detrimental to the health, well-being and future of all human beings.
Regarding already existing coal-fired plants - they should be forced to implement pollution-free measures within a very short period or be replaced with friendlier technologies. How this could be enforced is another matter for which I have no answers except that "when there is a will, there is a way."
BTW here is what Wikipedia has to say about the subject - but note the July 2005 date of the article in Scientific American - it is already well out-of-date.
"Beyond this, one of the most likely early applications of carbon capture is the capture of carbon dioxide from [[flue gas]]es at [[power station]]s (in the case of coal, this is known as "[[clean coal]]"). A typical new 1000-MW [[coal-fired power station]] produces around 6 million tons of carbon dioxide annually. Adding carbon capture to existing plants can add significantly to the costs of energy production; scrubbing costs aside, a 1000-MW coal plant will require the storage of about 50 million [[barrel]]s of carbon dioxide a year. However, scrubbing is relatively affordable when added to new plants based on [[coal gasification]] technology, where it is estimated to raise energy costs for households in the United States using only coal-fired electricity sources from 10 cents per kWh to 12 cents.<ref>{{cite journal | title=Can We Bury Global Warming? | author=Robert H. Socolow | journal=[[Scientific American]] | date=July 2005 | page=42}}</ref>"
In the article on coal in the Wikipedia I found this interesting brief note: "The price of coal has gone up from around $30 per short ton in 2000 to around $130 per short ton in 2008." No wonder the Australian coal industry has govt.support to "make hay while the sun shines". Hopefully, coal will price itself out of the market in time - but I am of little faith in this matter.
Unfortunately, the sun won't be shining for us much longer unless people really start to take this message seriously! The only hope I can see for getting some sensible action underway - is a massive disaster which scares everyone enough to actually demand a complete change in energy policies on world scale. The short-term profits for various companies and coal-exporting countries such as ours make it unlikely that we will see anything effective happen over the next few years - which is when it really must be done. If anyone else has any practical suggestions on how to get people moving on this issue - I would love to hear from you.
Of course, along with this, as I have said before, we have to immediately implement effective measures to ensure negative population growth worldwide.
I just wish I knew how to get my fellow Homo unsapiens to actually do it!
John
----- Original Message -----
From: frank
To: maillist for Green Activists
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 3:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Green-Activist] reports of US torture
Dear John,
I can't answer u're questions on cost effective ext. I just know CO2 has been getting captured by industrial gas companies the world over for my entire lifetime. So there's absolutely no question it can be done. TV programmes i've seen state that new more efficient methods of carbon capture on a large scale have already been developed. Also TV is the source for believing Geo Sequestration has also been proven. Now u know as much as i do.
Something like 80% of the worlds current electrical energy comes from coal fired power stations which belch and have been belching CO2 into the atmosphere. Carbon capture must immediately be instituted to remove the CO2 already belched into the atmosphere. Be buggered wether it's cost effective or not! The power industry, hence the consumers, can pay. As a matter of fact, if it costs an arm and a leg, that's good. Makes coal fired power stations too dear to continue with. As for the consumer, well if it's too dear to live, the vermin won't breed!
Funds allegedly for R&D of the technology are in effect bribes to keep the scientists busy and under control. The system has no intention of changing it's ways. We, the people, must force it to! This retrofit shit is just that, shit! CO2 can be captured anywhere. Doesn't have to be anywhere near the power station.
While u and a lot of other greenies have no problem with carbon capture, the lefty trash which have infiltrated and control The Greens have stated publicly that they oppose carbon capture. Now as i see it, a person or an organisation is ether part of the solution or against the environment. Therefore The Greens are anti the environment!
frank brown
----- Original Message -----
From: John Hill
To: maillist for Green Activists
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 10:46 AM
Subject: Re: [Green-Activist] reports of US torture
Dear Frank:
I have nothing against trying to find a way to capture carbon.
What I object to is that the research on this technology is not only being very heavily funded when these funds could be used immediately to start providing proven alternatives, but it is being used as an excuse to keep building coal-fired power plants (and to keep exporting coal) while the public is lulled into believing claims that someday it will be all O.K. because "they" will be able to retrofit all the plants they are now building. This is patently ridiculous as there is no guarantee they will find an effective method of retrofitting plants being built today and, in the meantime, we are being assaulted with rapidly increasing pollution.
You say the technology is "proven" - I have yet to see convincing evidence. How effective is this "proven" technology really, how cost-effective is it, and can it be retrofitted to existing coal-fired plants? If it does, indeed, meet all these requirements - why is it not in use already and why is very expensive research continuing in how to achieve it?
But I do agree with your statement that "People are pollution!" I am really distressed and disheartened that there seems to be so little serious discussion about the single most effective way of dealing with pollution (and a myriad of other major problems) and that is to immediately embark on a negative population growth policy worldwide.
I guess all we mere mortals can do at this point is to hope that people will get so frightened soon that they will begin to take he issues seriously and get to work FAST!
Here's hoping!
John Hill
----- Original Message -----
From: frank
To: maillist for Green Activists
Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 4:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Green-Activist] reports of US torture
Dear John,
The human race as a whole is degenerating.
But what chance do we have when The Greens oppose carbon capture with the temperature rising at an alarming rate, simply because some spin doctor linked carbon capture to coal. The media keeps saying the technology is unproven when the science has proved the technology. All that remains to do is build it. People are obviously too stupid to live!
When people of that level of stupidity are given access to the ability to torture without recrimination. They'll happily torture away.
People are pollution!
frank brown
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